A soldier-turned-politician, Captain Amarinder Singh joined the Congress but quit in the wake of Operation Bluestar. He came back to the party and went on to become chief minister of Punjab between 2002 and 2007. In this Idea Exchange moderated by Special Correspondent Maneesh Chhibber, Singh speaks about `witch-hunt' by the Akalis, his book on Ranjit Singh and the economy of the state After the anti-Sikh riots in Delhi, we went around the camps, but I did not hear the name of Jagdish Tytler. Everyone who was involved in this should face the law. But I do not want people who were not involved to be brought into the fold for political reasons.
MANEESH CHHIBBER: You were removed from the membership of the Punjab Vidhan Sabha in September 2008 over corruption in a land deal by your government but the Supreme Court recently held it as illegal and arbitrary.
What impact will this judgment have on the morale of the Congress in the state?
For the last three years, there has been a feeling that the Akali Dal is going after Congressmen in the hope of demoralising the party cadre. We have been saying that over 14,000 of our people are facing false cases. In my case, it was that the Amritsar Improvement Trust had a certain amount of land which was acquired by the government and 180 acres of that was released for allotment to private parties for commercial exploitation. The previous government headed by Mr Badal gave 84 acres from this land to three parties under a policy.
When we came into government, 32 acres were pending under that policy so we released that too.
When the Akali Dal-BJP government returned, they started needling. After that, they set up a Vidhan Sabha Committee, got whatever they wanted out of them and put that in front of the House and the House endorsed it. So it was just witch-hunting and I think everybody knew it. In Punjab, if somebody becomes a victim, the state support goes to him. I got it.
MANEESH CHHIBBER: There is talk about the Congress's involvement in the SGPC elections and a lot of it is being attributed to you.
Would you like to comment on that?
The Congress has never put up candidates or been a party to this election. Nevertheless, as individuals, it is our right to decide who should run our institutions or who should not run our institutions. I have a right and every Congressman has this right. We have made it clear many times that we, as a party, as an organisation, will not support anyone. But in our capacity as individuals, we will do it. I will do it.
There are some people in our party who, every time this question comes up, try to shoot it down or try to create a controversy. Perhaps they have their sympathies elsewhere, I can't say.
UNNI RAJEN SHANKER: You spoke about a witch-hunt by the Akalis. Similar allegations have been made against you: the Vigilance Bureau went after the Badals and the same Vigilance Bureau came after you.
When the Badals were doing what they did, there was a general hue and cry in the newspapers that there is corruption, etc. We took up that issue and it was part of our manifesto. In that, we made it clear that Parkash Singh Badal and his family's deeds would be investigated when we came into power. When we came to power, we asked the Vigilance Bureau to investigate and then suddenly the media said it was witch-hunting.
Now we must decide whether people who are corrupt have to be taken head-on or should we just let things happen as they are happening. Somewhere, the line has to be drawn. I think in drawing that line, we will have to allow investigation agencies to function as investigating agencies and not as people who are told to do what they have to do.
COOMI KAPOOR: While you were working on your book, The Last Sunset: Rise and Fall of the Lahore Durbar, did you find parallels between the court of Ranjit Singh and presentday politics?
Not really. He was a young man who came up from nothing; he was only 13 when his father died.
When he was 17, he took over his own establishment. That was the time when the Sikh Misls (semi-independent army units) had captured their areas and territories, then you had the "jagirdars" (landlords) who had their own territories all over the place and trouble in the tribal areas. So from the age of 17 to 21, the man consolidated his kingdom in what is today Pakistan. He was a genius. He was decisive and he was very clear-minded and a great administrator.
COOMI KAPOOR: But as an administrator, did he face the same problems as you face today?
He had advantages. If somebody misbehaved, he would just chop his head off or something like that! We can't do that now. It was a different way of life. In our system today, I think everything is fine: you have your checks and balances and people respond to ability. So, I think one doesn't need to worry.
VANDITA MISHRA: In two or three states, we see permanent political antagonism: SP and BSP in UP , DMK and AIADMK in Tamil Nadu.
How would you place the kind of `vendetta politics' in Punjab in the context of what is happening in some other states?
We have seen Karunanidhi being dragged out at 4 a.m. and taken to prison. We never did that.
We never allowed anything to go to the extent that it would be a blatant or widespread examination of somebody. It was on a particular issue that we took action: we investigated it and we found evidence. It is for the court to take a decision.
Parkash Singh Badal and I have been in the same party and we have worked together. Even at that stage, I never got along with him because I found in him a man who never stood by his word, who looked to just one or two people who connived with whatever he wanted. He never looked beyond his family. I have nothing against him. But I find that he is a man who has no administrative ability. Punjab is drifting. Our economy is in shambles. The law and order situation is growing worse.
All our 22 districts have some degree of Maoism.
And this is a man who has been chief minister for four terms.
DHIRAJ NAYYAR: Do you agree that in Punjab, after the Green Revolution, agricultural interests have become allpowerful in politics and the urban, industrial side has been neglected?
Absolutely. From 1966, or from the Green Revolution onwards, Punjab has contributed nearly 50 per cent of the country's food pool. The paddywheat rotation has ruined the soil and micronutrient levels have fallen. It is not helping Punjab's economy at all. At one time, our agricultural growth was 4.2 per cent as against 2.4 or 2.5 for India. Today, the process has been reversed.
If we come into the government next time, we will face a debt of Rs 26,000 crore. Our electricity board is running a debt of Rs 16,000 crore. We are was you reached out to Pakistani Punjab.
Quite a bit came out of that in terms of what the other side was willing to do. In retrospect, was it a good idea? How much support did you get and why didn't the support continue?
It was not an individual effort on my part. It was the PM who asked if there was any way I could start some kind of dialogue with our counterparts in Punjab there. There was a Punjabi conference in Pakistan. I told the Prime Minister about it and he said while I was there, I could explore other opportunities.
I met Pervaiz Elahi, the then chief minister of Pakistani Punjab, Pervez Musharraf and many others. I suggested to them that at least Punjab should open up Punjabi studies. Then I suggested sports and cultural activities. We started cultural festivals in Patiala and we brought over Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan and Farida Khanum. Then we had Punjabto-Punjab games. After that, when I visited Pakistan, it was a completely changed atmosphere. It was very open, very friendly. I remember when we had a cricket game in Chandigarh, I managed to get 4,000 visas for Pakistani fans and we had dinner for all 4,000. If the PM wishes, we can do more.
We still have the same friends there. When you have the same culture, the same language, it's not going to be difficult. You just have to start speaking Punjabi and you get along.
C. RAJA MOHAN: There are no memorials for Indian soldiers who fought in World War II.
Given your military background, isn't it time something is done about that?
There are regimental memorials, but there is nothing for Indian soldiers. I built my regimental memorial in Ludhiana because we originated from Ludhiana. It is called the Ludhiana Sikhs.
But there is nothing to commemorate Indian soldiers on the whole. I agree with you. I am all for it.
COOMI KAPOOR: You are of Jat ethnicity, what is your view on khap panchayats?
This is an unfortunate business. This tradition is not only limited to Haryana; it is there in Punjab too. I have been for many years the president of my association of Sidhu Brars. And one of the biggest problems there is that we have women aged 40 and above in our villages and they can't find suitable matches because the Sidhu Brars happen to be one of the biggest in the Jat community and they have some `rishtedari' in every family of Punjab. This is our big problem. So you can't find anyone to marry. I have suggested that this concept should be rationalised.
N.P. SINGH: Is it true that there have been widespread farmer suicides in Punjab? Why is the government in total denial then?
I don't know why they are denying it because human rights groups have said this. You must remember that 87 per cent of Punjab has holdings with a size of less than four acres. How are people going to survive? It's not possible. That's why I have been saying we should get out of this paddywheat rotation. We don't have the water.
VANDITA MISHRA: What are your views on the whole Dera phenomenon and the de mand for a separate SGPC in Haryana?
Let's start with the separate SGPC for Haryana.
I am all for it. It is double-faced on the part of Parkash Singh Badal because he led a morcha supporting the Delhi Sikhs' rights to have a gurdwara body and now, suddenly, he says he doesn't want Haryana to have one there. What are the reasons?
The reasons are his own involvement--he is the chairman of certain gurdwaras.
The Deras are a phenomenon, not new to Punjab. They have been there ever since I can remember. If the Deras are growing, it is at the expense of somebody and it is at the expense of the Sikh community because the Shiromani committee is not doing anything. They had a wing called the Dharam Parchar Committee that was supposed to promote the religion and they are not doing it.
The SGPC should be worried about it and try to make a mid-course correction.
AMITOJ SINGH: What is your opinion on the Delhi Sikh riots and the alleged involvement of HKL Bhagat and Jagdish Tytler?
When this incident took place, nobody was allowed to get into Delhi. I managed to get in because a friend of mine had an airplane and he, my brother and I flew in. We went around the camps in Delhi and to areas where the rioting took place.
On November 2, we were at Gurdwara Shishganj Sahib, and I heard the name of other Congress leaders but not Jagdish Tytler's name. Everyone who was involved in this should face the law. But I do not want people who were not involved to be brought into the fold for political reasons. Similarly, Kamal Nath's name has come up after so many years. His name was never there. This sort of business is wrong.
COOMI KAPOOR: There is a lot of talk in the media about your friendship with a Pakistani national, Aroosa Alam.
She is a very good friend. I enjoy her company. She is a very intelligent lady. She is 55 years old and she is heading a production channel in Dubai. I don't why we are shy of saying that a lady is a friend.
D.K. SINGH: What do you think of Sukhbir Singh Badal as a leader?
He doesn't have the experience. You can't just come into the state and hope to take over the state. Political management is essential. You can't be impetuous. Parkash Singh Badal, whatever his faults, has the political acumen to handle things. As far as Sukhbir is concerned, he has held the industries portfolio, agriculture, finance, home.
What has he got to show for it?
RUCHIKA TALWAR: One huge problem in Punjab is that of narcotics.
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